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cplatts

12 Posts

Posted - 01/19/2012 :  4:42:49 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Jan. 19 2012 Update:

Nothing heard from Lennox on an engineered/tested solution to this problem.

The heating season is now upon us!

How could this furnace have passed FCC emission limit testing?

For a top-of-the-line furnace I find the lack of engineering truly pathetic.
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cplatts

12 Posts

Posted - 03/02/2012 :  07:44:43 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
March 2 2012 Update:

I am very pleased to announce a new revision of the furnace control board was installed on my furnace yesterday by a Technical Representative of Lennox. Also installed were several clamp-on split ferrite beads over the multi-conductor control cables that are connected to the control board's terminal strip.

I am also extremely satisfied with the results!

Thank you Lennox for successfully solving my radio frequency interference problem!

Edited by - cplatts on 03/02/2012 07:46:23 AM
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KC2WFF

1 Posts

Posted - 03/28/2012 :  7:40:57 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote

To cplatts and all the other posters on this topic I would like to offer a big THANK YOU. I'm a relatively new Ham (licensed in 2009) who didn't get a rig (Kenwood TS590S) until January of this year. I soon discovered that I was getting hammered by intermittent broadband noise on all HF bands. At first I thought it might be HV coronal discharges on the utility feeder running down my street, and I asked them to conduct a survey to find a bad splice or insulator on the 13.3 KV feeder. Because the Lennox furnace ran so quietly (acoustically speaking) I did not initially correlate the broadband noise with the furnace. Then by accident I happened to be listening to the rig when the furnace came on and "Bingo" the light bulb went on. A little Google-ing brought me to this forum and thread.

I presented a hard copy of the thread to my Lennox dealer, let them witness ("hear" and "see") the problem, and they went away to study the problem. Today a Dealer technician and a Lennox factory representative installed (a) a new controller board, (b) ferrite beads, and (c) a substantial line filter on the AC input to the furnace. I also am happy to report that the broadband noise went away (from an S5 to an S0).

THANK YOU Lennox for fixing the problem !!! And thanks (on behalf of future customers) for letting me know that future revs of the control board will include built in filtering.

Bob
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JIM MCCARTHY

4 Posts

Posted - 06/11/2012 :  2:36:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I HAVE A QUESTION FOR MR PLATTS. I HAD THE LOCAL LENNOX DEALER HERE TODAY AND COMPLAINED AGAIN ABOUT RADIO INTERFERENCE AND GAVE HIM A COPY OF THE COMMENTS ON THIS SITE. SINCE YOUR PROBLEM HAS BEEN SOLVED, HE ASKED ME TO TRY AND FIND OUT THE PART NUMBER OF THE REPAIR KIT USED IN YOUR FURNACE. IF YOU HAVE THIS INFORMATION AND CAN PASS IT ALONG, IT WOULD BE MOST APPRECIATED.

THANK YOU,

JIM MCCARTHY
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cplatts

12 Posts

Posted - 06/23/2012 :  09:26:15 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi Jim,

As the fix was personally implemented by the Lennox regional technical representative, I do not have the top level P/N for the entire kit per se. The P/N for the new/installed control board is 101905-02. The balance of the kit should include 3-4 large clamp-on ferrite beads, a shielded cable assembly connecting the CAI blower to the control board, and an AC line filter. The EMI Filter Kit P/N is 604552-0x (where x is the latest revision).

I hope this helps!
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Jack_KD3C

3 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2012 :  12:08:48 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I'm a little late to the party having just gotten back on the air and after having a top dollar Lennox unit installed. I suffer the same problem 10-20db over 9 QRN and came to the same conclusion that it's EMI from the furnace. The P/N quoted by cplatts, is this a universal kit for all Lennox units or is it specific to a certain model? Have others had this Lennox kit installed and enjoyed the same success? Anxious to get the fix, it's getting cold while on the air and the XYL is NOT happy. Going QRT soon, help!

Jack Phillips
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slctech

2096 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2012 :  1:11:32 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I have looked into this out of shear curiosity and these parts are not something that can just be ordered. Lennox is not stocking mass quantities of this repair kit, since it an EXTREMELY small group of customers experiencing this issue, mostly HAM radio operators. 99.9% of the consumers who have this furnace or similar, are clueless as to any interference. As long as their cell phones, wifi routers, and TVs work, that is all they care about.
Now for those elite few who require minimal interference, Lennox can issue this customized kit.

So you will need to contact your Lennox dealer that installed your furnace directly. They will contact their technical representative and that rep will work with Lennox corporate to have a specialized kit sent to him to resolve the issue.




I am not an employee of CozyParts, I generously donate my time. The services here are free, with honest intention to assist, however, this site is not free to maintain. Please make the effort if you need a part or tool to purchase from CozyParts.com. This will ensure this wonderful forum remains for years to come!! As a Lennox Technician I feel basic repairs and maintenance can be performed by the homeowner. But I highly suggest that periodic maintenance should be made by a certified licensed technician. You should contact your local Lennox technician for any repairs or issues that are outside your comfort zone. Property damage, personal injury, and death can occur from improperly repaired or maintained systems. Replacing a part doesn't always resolve the issue that caused the part to fail!
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JIM MCCARTHY

4 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2012 :  4:10:27 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I CONTINUE TO HAVE THE INTERFERENCE PROBLEM AND RECENTLY CALLED LENNOX DIRECTLY. I WAS ADVISED THERE IS INDEED A KIT TO REPAIR THE PROBLEM BUT THAT IT WAS CONSIDERED AN ACCESSORY TO THE FURNACE AND THEREFORE NOT A WARRANTY REPAIR. NOT HAVING THE COMPLETE MODEL NUMBER AVAILABLE AT THE TIME, THEY COULDN'T GIVE ME A PRICE, BUT I'M GUESSING IT ISN'T CHEAP. MY LOCAL DEALER CONTINUES TO MAINTAIN THERE IS NO REPAIR KIT AVAILABLE SO EITHER THEY ARE MISINFORMED OR JUST HOPING I WILL GO AWAY. IT APPEARS I'M DOWN TO HAVING TO SUE LENNOX OR REPORT THE PROBLEM TO THE FCC, OR BOTH. I HAVEN'T DONE EITHER AS YET, BUT IT APPEARS THAT'S WHERE I AM GOING TO HAVE TO GO. I FAIL TO SEE WHY I SHOULD HAVE TO PAY ADDITIONAL FOR A DEFECT INHERENT IN THE DESIGN OF THE FURNACE.
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slctech

2096 Posts

Posted - 12/12/2012 :  9:02:07 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I am no longer a Lennox Dealer but of the thousands of customers in the past, until this thread was originally posted, this was the first time I have ever heard of these issues. I think you can go ahead and sue Lennox. Don't think you will achieve much. Just a scare tactic on your part to get a monster multi-billion dollar corporation to shed a tear for a one in a hundred thousand case. Doubt the FCC will care, they are more worried about Janet Jackson poking a nipple out of a dress, than some static in somebodies home.

If I was you, I would by-pass your dealer and just contact Lennox directly. You may need to purchase an upgrade kit, but one must step back and look at the big picture.
I do not believe Lennox or any manufacturer purposely designed a system to generate obnoxious frequencies to create issues for home radio operators. They obviously have gone out of their way to work on a solution and have made it available if you feel you require the kit.
I would not term it a "defect", all manufactures offer ECM variable speed motors, all are manufactured by Beloit/GE and utilize the same harness and the control boards, though different from manufacture to manufacture, still utilize proprietary controls licensed through GE/Beloit. So whether you installed a Carrier, Trane, York, etc... you would still experience the same thing.

We have installed six G71 units in the attic space of the local police and disaster control station. They utilize all forms of radio communications. I brought this subject up to them when this thread was first generated, and they never experienced any issues. So I think it is very hit and miss.

Lennox realizes this is a very unique and rare scenario for just a very few customers. If I was Lennox, would I just give you or anyone the kit...sure. But I am not and I personally think that anyone with such a concern should start with their dealer, then go straight to Lennox, and then keep going.

I am in no way bashing on you at all. In fact I understand your frustration. I am just a very patient person and just personally get tired of the threats of suing a person or company. Been around for so many years in so many of these forums and every time the "I am going to sue", statement comes up, I just roll my eyes and calculate in my mind the price of attorney fees, hours spent on the phone, filling out and filing litigation paperwork. All of that would cost a thousand times more than just bucking up and purchasing a few parts in a kit.

Contact Lennox directly and by-pass your dealer. As you stated, they probably have gone way above the call of duty on this furnace. There is a point where they walk away from you as a customer taking their losses instead of hemorrhaging money on a unique issue.

Lennox Industries Research and Development Laboratories in Carrollton, TX (972)416-7515 ask for supervisor of technical support, if not available, ask to be forwarded to his voice mail.

Good Luck

I am not an employee of CozyParts, I generously donate my time. The services here are free, with honest intention to assist, however, this site is not free to maintain. Please make the effort if you need a part or tool to purchase from CozyParts.com. This will ensure this wonderful forum remains for years to come!! As a Lennox Technician I feel basic repairs and maintenance can be performed by the homeowner. But I highly suggest that periodic maintenance should be made by a certified licensed technician. You should contact your local Lennox technician for any repairs or issues that are outside your comfort zone. Property damage, personal injury, and death can occur from improperly repaired or maintained systems. Replacing a part doesn't always resolve the issue that caused the part to fail!
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Kramer_1984

1 Posts

Posted - 12/13/2012 :  11:51:02 AM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
Hi everyone. I'm new to the forum and came across this site because I too am experiencing EMI from my Lennox unit. I'm not a HAM operator but an AT&T UVerse customer with wireless TV reception and wireless internet. Everytime my furnace starts (relays clicking) my TV and Internet start to freeze and stop. I'll be contacting my Lennox Dealer and maybe they'll understand and fix my dilema.

Thanks

Kramer_1984
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Jack_KD3C

3 Posts

Posted - 12/17/2012 :  1:42:38 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I contacted my Lennox dealer, forwarded him your comments and also the info posted by "cplatts". As it turned out he was already aware of such a kit as he had to install one on a customer who's AM 1090 radio broadcasts were getting covered up. It apparently worked for that guy. He ordered mine. Be here in about a week. I'll update after it's installed. Thanks to all for the help.
Jack
quote:
Originally posted by slctech

I have looked into this out of shear curiosity and these parts are not something that can just be ordered. Lennox is not stocking mass quantities of this repair kit, since it an EXTREMELY small group of customers experiencing this issue, mostly HAM radio operators. 99.9% of the consumers who have this furnace or similar, are clueless as to any interference. As long as their cell phones, wifi routers, and TVs work, that is all they care about.
Now for those elite few who require minimal interference, Lennox can issue this customized kit.

So you will need to contact your Lennox dealer that installed your furnace directly. They will contact their technical representative and that rep will work with Lennox corporate to have a specialized kit sent to him to resolve the issue.




I am not an employee of CozyParts, I generously donate my time. The services here are free, with honest intention to assist, however, this site is not free to maintain. Please make the effort if you need a part or tool to purchase from CozyParts.com. This will ensure this wonderful forum remains for years to come!! As a Lennox Technician I feel basic repairs and maintenance can be performed by the homeowner. But I highly suggest that periodic maintenance should be made by a certified licensed technician. You should contact your local Lennox technician for any repairs or issues that are outside your comfort zone. Property damage, personal injury, and death can occur from improperly repaired or maintained systems. Replacing a part doesn't always resolve the issue that caused the part to fail!




Jack Phillips
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Ellsworth

1 Posts

Posted - 10/21/2018 :  8:22:06 PM  Show Profile  Reply with Quote
I realize that this topic was last commented on in 2012, but I'm having the problem now that I have set up my amateur station plus, the fan wipes out my nighttime listening on the AM band. It is true that AM is not highly thought of anymore; perhaps if product manufacturers had spent a few dollars trying to keep their products from being wide band transmitters, the AM band would still be very usable.

First of all, the notion that you can go to court and sue under 47 C. F. R. Part 15 is a tough row to hoe. Every attorney I have ever dealt with has told me to avoid court if at all possible. Court is extremely expensive, takes a long time to get to trial (pre-trial there will be multiple filings by both sides attorneys = $$$$$), and your case can be dismissed by the judge if he finds cause. Even if you win, it is not automatic that you could recover your court costs.

I would like to point out that although Part 15 limits signals from many low power devices such as incidental radiators, there are exemptions for certain products. This is an exemption clause from 47 C. F. R. Part 15.103 - "(d) A digital device utilized exclusively in an appliance, e.g., microwave oven, dishwasher, clothes dryer, air conditioner (central or window), etc.". I am sure that a digital controller for a heating system would be in the same category, thus be exempted.

At this point you are going to have to go into court trying to sue due to interference is being caused to the amateur service. Good luck on that! Although the FCC regulations require a user to stop using a device that is causing interference, it is highly doubtful they would ever contact the user and tell them to stop using it.

It infuriates me that a person can cough up nearly $40k for a heating/air conditioning system and the manufacturer is bitching because they have to install a handful of extra parts to keep the system from wiping out the entire spectrum from 0 to 40 MHz.

I speak from experience; I worked at the Saint Paul MN office of the FCC for over 30 years and have seen many, many types of interference.

Unfortunately, right now, the FCC is doing their best to disengage the field offices from assisting anyone who has an interference complaint. It started in earnest with Chairman Reed Hundt. Apparently, there was one commercial satellite receive operator who was receiving interference on a satellite receive frequency. The operator paid a consulting engineer $50,000.00 to resolve the case. That $50k standard became Reed Hundt's standard we were to use with complainants. If someone was not willing to spend $50k to resolve an interference issue, then obviously, it wasn't important to the complainant. If it wasn't important to the complainant, it wasn't important to the FCC. This is not hyperbole, I heard this concept at least a hundred times when I brought up various scenarios of interference complaints when this policy was implemented. Hundt even made a statement that he didn't know what all the talk about interference was, he had gone out at lunchtime, used his cell phone, and he didn't hear any. Gee, I didn't know that it was that simple.

QST had a brief article about the Chicago office being prohibited from assisting residents at a housing area where cell phones/garage door openers/etc wouldn't work. Some amateurs went out and located the offending device.

So the FCC of today is not the FCC that used to be concerned about the users of the spectrum. That Hundt attitude persists. I doubt that the FCC would even entertain acting on your behalf with respect to the vendor of an offending product. Even though Reed Hundt is long gone, policies tend to stick unless the new chairman would have a particular interest in the previous chairman's policies.

Just think if Hundt had run the EPA when the Flint MI residents complained about lead in their water. If they weren't interested in spending $50k to have a treatment system installed in their basement to take out the lead, it obviously wasn't important to them. And, if it wasn't important to them, it sure wouldn't be important to the EPA.

I'll bet you could have a lead treatment system installed for a LOT less than the $50k threshold Hundt implemented.
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